pinewood derby wheel alignment. 2g wheel with track tested speed increase of 1. pinewood derby wheel alignment

 
2g wheel with track tested speed increase of 1pinewood derby wheel alignment 313" wide

As an Amazon Associate I earn off of qualified purchases -an Amazon Associate I earn off of qualified purchases -shaft is approximately 0. PRO Graphite is your #1 speed secret! Track tests proved 17. Add to Cart. 4. A derby race is 3 seconds in length with a top speed of 20 mph at a car’s top speed. Wheels do not spin freely – Make sure the wheel-to-body gap is set properly using a wheel alignment tool (or use a dime), and that the wheels/axles are thoroughly lubricated with a recommended lubricant (graphite must be broken in to perform well). Position the driller so the holes will be the exact distance from the edge of the block (7/8") as the holes on the other side. Wheel Alignment. Use the slowest wheel (the one that spins for the shortest time) on the raised axle. But during the past season, there were two popular questions about lubricating with graphite. When coupled with the Rail-Rider alignment technique, significant performance improvements can be achieved. Start at a medium-low speed and 400 grit. Pro Rail Rider Tool™ Pro Axle Bender; Wheels For Pinewood Derby Cars. 95. Sign-up help. The Pro Rail Rider Tool™ is designed to bend axles 1. Axle & Wheel Alignment Guide. How to make bent / camber / steer Pinewood Derby Axles. We show you how to build this car step-by-step with 3D modeled images, cut out templates for every detail, including contour outline templates. Given that the new wheels are typically 1. Its unique cup-in-lever design prevents. Whatever your need, we have the tool. 0 out of 5. The Derby Dust axle set - with an axle alignment tool, body slotters, axle pullers, and a Pinewood Derby axle guide, you’ll be flying straight and true. $1196. The Lazer is pre-weighted to save you time from finding the center of gravity. 190 inch diameter and 0. ONE of these speed secrets w. We have designed this wheel to remove the maximum amount of mass from the wheel in the critical areas for maximum speed, but retain ALL of the interior stock markings that are required by many Pack, District and Council Rules. 397 mm Precision wheel gap gauge . Winning Blastcar Secrets covers everything from how to build a Blastcar track, to designing and building a winning CO 2 Blastcar. Going as is will kill your speed, eliminating the purpose of a 3 wheel rider as you NDFW will be dragging the rail. I. Last year my son was in his final year of Cub Scouts. Car's center of mass as. Steering axle = positive camber. Derby Talk is a forum for Pinewood Derby, Awana Grand Prix, Kub Kar Rally, Shape N Race Derby, Space Derby, Raingutter Regatta and other similar races where a child and an adult work together to create a race vehicle and a lot of fun and memories. Car Kit Instructions. Outlaw Wheels - Super Light Weight (set of 4) Our lightest and fastest wheels, but they are NOT for Cub Scout BSA pinewood derby races! We took all the material off that we can to give you a 1. Plan on adding 2 to 3. 1-48 of 86 results for "pinewood derby wheel alignment tool" Results Price and other details may vary based on product size and color. Only dry lubricant is permitted. Description. Learn what works and what doesn’t work. Add decals. The Pro-Axle Bender provides an accurate, simple, and repeatable way to put a bend in pinewood derby axles. Below are some highlights: Designing your car - CO2 Car Design Styles. Then we went to work. 180. Heavy wood isn’t ideal for a fast car. If the car turns one way or the other, adjust the dominant wheel until you get the car to run pretty straight. Wheel alignment is important both to minimize wheel contact with the axle head and body as well as to limit the contact between the wheels and guide rail as the car travels down the track. winning tips, speed tips, spee. Pine-Car XL-R8 Ultra Graphite Pinewood Derby Tool and Accessory #p4037. No modifications have been made to these wheels or axles. SKU: 5120 Categories: Individual Derby Tools, Pinewood Derby Tools. Our Pinewood PRO Wheel and Axle Alignment tool allows you to build a perfectly aligned car for maximum speeds! Build a winning pinewood derby car! Orders over $100 ship free via USPS. You can also ask a responsible adult to make these cuts using a power tool. Simple visual inspection with the naked eye one can see it is off center. A customer made us aware of this flaw in manufacturing in Jan ’12. rear wheel alignment is necessary. You get easy axle insertion and perfect wheel spacing, fast and easy, all in one motion. PRO Graphite is a high performance, special blend of ultra-fine powered. Move the car forward or backward until it balances on the ruler. Remember, friction is your enemy. NyOil is a proven race winner and an excellent replacement for the obsolete Krytox lube. Speed Tips and Tricks. Installing pinewood derby axles into the axle slot is challenging because the pine. This way all 4 wheels will be shaved to the same diameter. Find Out More At: Learn how to ensure accurate wheel spacing and axle nail alignment with the Axle Placement Guide. Tools for Alignment. 0 13 ratings. 035 (similar to PineCar Alignment Tool, and Pro-Axle Guide) 0. Step 2: Lubricate Axles and Wheels. The Red Thunderbolt is a super fast pre-built pinewood derby car designed to meet all BSA rules. Drill perfectly straight axle holes. These bumps cause friction. The built in Wheel Spacer means your axles will have perfect wheel spacing. Oct 10 2023 . 310 wide tread contact area. Wheel Alignment Our PRO Ultra-Lite BSA wheels are . It includes four pre-drilled 3/8" weight holes for tungsten cylinder or zinc round weights. Pre-weighted pinewood derby car body. - BSA axles. . Secure the Driller as described above. Do you use the little plastic "alignment" tool to gauge (the notched end for "depth") how close to body to push in your axels? or some other way/closer/looser/etc?. $1,749. Remember that wood holds moisture and the moisture can add weight and make it heavy. The Wedge Wing Car is an Official BSA block with drilled axle slots so your car rolls straight. Open the press and repeat steps 3 and 4 with the mark at the 4 o'clock position. Coping Saw - Just the saw needed to shape your car. If your Pinewood Derby car travels down the track and. You will need the axle press and the Pro Rail Riding Tool. Remember, friction is your enemy. Thus, the alignment of the front dominant wheel must be adjusted so that it steers towards the raised wheel. TUNING YOUR PINEWOOD DERBY for the WIN! Setup: Install the wheels and bent axles on the car, use the gap gauge to properly gap wheels. Pinewood Derby, Awana Grand Prix, Kub Kar. This is the part that you will use. 4 Bushings 3 References Wheel Alignment [ edit | edit source] Axle insertion tool Wheel alignment. Insert the axle into your wheel and spin your wheel for about 30 seconds. . 0 13 ratings. Once you have it tuned, try it a few more times to make sure it's consistent. All BSA markings are intact. Tuning the Alignment of Your Pinewood Derby Car. Pine-Car Pinewood Derby Strip Weight 2 oz Pinewood Derby Car Weight #p352. Pinewood Wizard body – This body allows the weight to be readily changed without affecting the balance point. Raise a front wheel by 1/16 inch. 087 inch diameter zinc plated steel nails. 5° to 10° can be achieved for a wide range of tuning options, The tool features a blade & Fork design pivot for accurate tracking and. The Pro-Rail Rider Tool works with the Pro-Axle Press II to put a precise bend in an axle for pinewood derby alignment adjustment and/or for running with angled axles. Find Out More At: - Short demonstration on how to install nail type axles, use the wheel alignment tool for best results. Without releasing the clamp, turn the tool and block over and drill the second hole. Pinewood Derby Memory Wheel Loss. Now drill all of your pinewood derby axle holes with one setup! Based on the Pro-Body Tool II, the Pro-Body Jig allows the distance between the front and back axle holes to be precisely set, and then repeatedly applied to multiple blocks. Learn more about the basics of Royal Ranger wheel alignment. 1. On B. 184 in OD out of the box, even a tiny amount of tread sanding/polishing will reduce the diameter to less than 1. Add to Cart. Assemble the car with the axle head location dots at 12:00. Build a winning pinewood derby car!. A pinewood derby car should go as straight as possible, so a longer wheel base is an advantage. 6. Check out The Pope's Place on the full version. $ 88. 5 seconds over stock wheels. This is why graphite has been used to lubricate pinewood derby axles since the very first races in the 1950’s. Pinewood Derby Axle Tools on Maximum Velocity | A full selection of tools for pinewood derby axle preparation, installation, and alignment. he suggests flatter is better because even though having the wheel touch the axle head is better than touching the car, the combination of constantly being on the head versus. Precision weighted center of gravity, to maximize inertia and speed through to the finish gate. Tools for Alignment. The Pro Axle Bender is a fully adjustable precision tool designed to bend all Pinewood Derby Car axles for alignment and tuning. 3. Pinewood derby wheels are made by an injection molding process that leaves undesirable blemishes and imperfections in the parts. 0037. 4 Wheels: hard plastic, full profile, solid sidewall, raised lettering "Maximum Velocity". This track is easily transportable and. You must add weight to your pinewood derby car to make it fast. The holes should be drilled with a #44 bit (0. This is usually accomplished in one of 2 ways, the first more common and the second less so. Step 5: Align Wheel to Ride Lane Rail. Pre-cut Cars, Blocks. PRO Axles. Place the wheel/axle on the base with the pointed end of the axle up. 0 provides all you need to know to turn your car design into. Pinewood Derby Wheel Tread. Complete seven critical pre-race checks with one simple tool. One of the most important aspects of building a successful pinewood derby car is ensuring that the wheels are aligned correctly. Use a start and stop block. Let the paint dry. At one time, the average pinewood derby builder could not achieve a high. Axle alignment - makes your car roll straight 2. The cars designs below with links take you to the plan for that car. This will reduce friction and increase wheel speed. To build a fast, winning pinewood derby car, you need a great car design, polished axles, bent axles for steering, lathed wheels to reduce inertia, tungsten weights to optimize center of gravity, plus all the speed tips in our Winning Pinewood Derby Secrets book. Wheel imperfections cause uneven rotations, however small, with each revolution, reducing your car speed. By using only a hand drill and the correct sized #44 drill bit provided, The Pro Body Tool 2 is easy for anyone to use and designed to work on BSA and Pine Car. Our best-selling, patented PRO Driller makes drilling straight, 2. I. Product Code: 060177. About. This minimizes the opportunity for the wheels to slide around on the axles and promotes stability. If you don’t have enough weight, your car will not have enough inertia to reach the finish line. Make sure to register the same side against the Guide when not using key for drilling. Friday. Derby Worx instructions suggest the use of a hammer. LEGO Pinewood Derby CarsFigure 3 – Underside of CarThe fenders were shaped by tapering the leading edge, and by beveling the portion that hangs below the car (this must be done to prevent scraping on the track guide rail – see Figure 3). Sturdy nylon. Moly Molybdenum disulfide lubricant. Then, weigh the block quickly and accurately with a Pinewood Derby scale. A pinewood derby wheel has four areas that create friction. 060; 0. Closed. Now it is a little trickier to do but it can still be done and is a LOT faster than a straight on alignment. This article explores techniques, bit size, and tools available to help you achieve excellent pinewood derby wheel alignment. It also serves as the base for the Pro-Outer Hub Shaver (5115) and the Pro-Wheel Shaver XT II (5154). Last year we followed the method outlined in David Meades Book "Pinewood Derby Speed Secret". PRO Track with Center Guide Rail is a complete system for Pinewood Derby or LEGO Derby Car racing. This may seem like an afterthought to many, but if your Pinewood Racer doesn’t go straight, the wheels will rub against the track, causing it to slow down. Use the slowest. In this Edition: I Bought Stuff From You and I Didn’t Win, Pinewood Derby Car Showcase, Pinewood Derby Memory: Hard Work Pays Off. Low Position – 2. Don't use spray-on graphite or moly. 95 Bore Wax. 0 gram, and are machined with a high level of accuracy. Use pin vise for years of use. If your car drifts to the side, the wheels will rub against the center guide rail and slow your car. Axle Polishing Kit. Pinewood Derby® is a registered. The blocks vary in density from 3 to 6 ounces. FREE delivery Fri, Aug 18 on $25 of items shipped by Amazon. In addition, the graphite flakes slide on each other. Toe in, Toe out - A wheel check to make car roll straight 6. It should roll straight to. You get easy axle insertion and perfect wheel spacing, fast and easy, all in one motion. Pay close attention to shaving 1⁄16th of the width of the car on the DFS side so that the rear wheels will not touch. 002" of each other; We also clean the wheel bore BSA Lightly Lathed Speed Wheels are precision tuned and super fast, while leaving all of the BSA markings in the inside and outside of the wheels. Pro-Body Tool II (BSA Version) — Used to drill parallel pinewood derby axle. Stick-on, Screw-on, Tungsten Round, Cube, Putty and Zinc Weights. The Pro Body jig increases the accuracy of the body block by locking all 4 axle points together in. ( Car Not Included) Add to cart. and make sure that the rear wheels stay against the axle heads. 5 oz wheels/axles = 2. Use all of the graphite. The Lazer! Pre-weighted Pinewood Derby Car Body. Lubricate the wheels. Once a pinewood derby builder could not achieve precision without a machine shop. Pinewood Derby Fenders / Air Guides Fenders improve air flow over the wheels resulting in a few milliseconds of advantage, during a tight race. - Grand Prix sticker sheet with numbers and racing symbols. No camber means the wheel is evenly flat to the track. 5 degree bent axles are typically used to cant the rear wheels, while our 1. The wheel inertia must be kept low, meaning that anything with high density and or high volume must be kept near the wheel axis. Closed. Our exclusive Pinewood PRO Tools help you save time while making your car faster. These bumps cause friction. Raised WheelWheel and Axle Alignment; Pack Light - another wheel trick; How to make your car wheels fast. Simply insert your axles as you normally would, pour some graphite into the hub and seal it with a standard 3/4" round stationary sticker. A typical Pinewood Derby car will wander from left to right, bumping into the rail between its wheels, as it runs down the track. However, in the end, I was not thrilled with what I perceived as low spin times for the wheels, considering the level of effort that went into each pair. Build a winning pinewood derby car! Orders over $100 ship free via USPS. A thin, small car design has less wood so it needs more weight. Complete seven critical pre. Note that adjusting the rail rider axle will adjust the wheel. Click to find the best Results for pinewood derby car wheel alignment Models for your 3D Printer. N. Another way to align the axles is to measure from each side. Use this tool to achieve perfect alignment on your Pinewood Derby car! Designed for aligning and adjusting your Pinewood Derby car during construction to achieve maximum performance; Made of clear acrylic; Used for seven different adjustments to your car; Adjustment reference numbers are screen-printed in black on the face of the tool. The wheel tread is . When a race can be won by a fraction of an inch, it is important that your car has every advantage. Pinewood Derby Memory The Race. In this Edition: Feature Article – Designing The Car Body For Performance, Pinewood Derby Car Showcase, Pinewood Derby Memory – Great Karma!, Q&A. It’s blue, it’s cool and it has helped thousands build a fast, winning car. Hold the Axle Guide in place with your thumb then gently press the car body straight down on the axle. Axle & Wheel Alignment Guide. Forget the pencil or ruler; use our Center Of Gravity (COG) Stand to accurately measure and adjust the balance point of your pinewood derby car. Then alignment, friction too much to the axle head or to much to the body. SKU: 5196 Categories: Individual Derby Tools, Pinewood Derby Tools. In Stock Ready to Ship! The low cost PRO Track with Center Guide Rail is a plastic 3-Lane track for Pinewood Derby or LEGO Derby Car racing. The tool has a built in gap gauge to set the correct wheel hub to car body gap. - BSA wheels. The built in ruler simplifies the process of finding the exact balance point of your car. Car Kit Instructions. The Grand Prix BSA pinewood derby car kit is an officially licensed BSA product that includes: - Pre-cut Grand Prix pinewood derby car block with axle slots on the bottom. wheels, the Pro Wheel Shaver will remove the step perfectly for reduced friction and improved performance. This is a speed trick that is usually overlooked and, when used with our Pro Bore Polisher, can give your pinewood derby car a significant speed advantage. While holding the block and PRO Inserter, tip the block on its side with the axle head pointing down. 125). Wheel Alignment; Mufflers & Exhaust; Engine Repair; Belts & Hoses; Lights, Wipers & Accessories; Steering & Suspension; AC & Heating Repair; Car Battery Replacement;. To use the alignment computer run the four trials and enter the wheel positions as they appear at. Outline the league with a pencil. All Pinewood Derby Kit Axles are not created equal and until they are all shaped correctly, achieving the desired alignment for maximum speed is almost impossible. "Wheels: The entrant shall use the wheels from the official Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit, or official Grand Prix replacement wheels, and wheels may be. 5 degree angled axle holes, extended wheelbase holes and a raised wheel hole. It would require excellent alignment to keep it on the track but it would remove some air resistance and some weight. A car with a raised wheel is easier to align, and will start rolling faster than a car will all four wheels on the ground. Align the index mark with the line on the block. 5 oz of weight to your car, depending on your car design and the weight of your pine wood block. The Pro Axle Bender is a fully adjustable tool for bending all Pinewood Derby Car axles. Oct 28 2023 . Oftentimes, just the front ‘steering. Graphite is easy to apply, it is inexpensive and it is an excellent pinewood derby axle lubricant. The kits’ wheels will have imperfections, such as rough areas, runout (high and low spots on the tread), etc. But here's what you can. If the weight is over 5 oz, drill holes in the bottom of the block between the. A fluffy pipe cleaner and a fine polish like Derby Worx Micro-Polish in a drill will produce excellent results. It also minimizes the risk of damaging the car body during axle insertion. Camaro pre-cut pinewood derby . Left Rear – Apply axle with negative camber apply line in the 11 o’clock position. Raising the non-steer wheel (typically the front left) so it does not contact the track reduces the amount of energy used to start the wheels spinning. - Optional extended wheelbase so your car is stable. 049) 0. From the scout store we had purchased the pinewood derby speed kit that included: sandpaper, extra nails, a white powder (that I thought was Teflon lube), wheel mandrel, etc. Closed. This document describes a process for aligning the rear axles of a Pinewood Derby car. Machined PRO Super Speed Axles (4 axles) $10. Glue the canopy to the top of the car with super glue or epoxy. 99. So, you don’t really use up the graphite. Description. It is a popular racing event that involves building and racing wooden cars. WHEELS: The car shall roll on approved BSA Pinewood Derby wheels, only. 25 in stock. You can use 16 to 22 track sections (and a large room. Benefits of the. 0 inches long by 1. Just Getting Started? B. If the hub is not squared, the wheel will wobble when it touches the car body making your car unstable and slower. Make sure the ruled edge is flush with one side and that both ends of the axle slot line up with the #1 line on the tool. Unfortunately, most of your competitors will have the exact same wheels that are equally fast. 2. Heats were run with the weight concentrated in the center of the car, and then with the weight placed at opposite ends of the car. $16. Pinewood Derby® Tool and Speed Supply Company is my family’s full time work and passion, With over 50 different Pinewood Derby items, ranging from our patented tools to help you and your child build an awesome car together, to our record setting Nascar design inspired speed wheels and axles that are all proudly made in the U. Don’t Do That: Avoiding Pinewood Derby Pitfalls (An update of an article originally published Volume 3, Issue 10 – February 4, 2004) As I have read information on Pinewood Derby racing, and have talked to derby novices and experts, I occasionally find a gem of information. Instead of the shaver cutting straight edges, it now cones the. Loosen the screw holding the cutting blade. Pine-Car Axle Shaper Pinewood Derby Tool and Accessory #p4612. The pinewood derby wheel shaver – Pro-Wheel Shaver XT2 is a precision device that will ‘shave time’ off your pinewood derby runs by: Creating a wheel which is perfectly round, and true to the wheel bore with-in thousandth’s of an inch. Derby Car Dimensions. PRO BSA Speed Wheels have all the features of our Speed Wheels (above). Remove Burrs. One of the most reliable ways to bend axles requires 2 tools from the Derby Worx product line. This alignment technique had been used for many years by a select few, but became popular around 2008. Reviews. Drill Guide to Help Improve Axle Mounting Accuracy and Wheel Alignment . We recommend fenders for this car which extend over the wheels. Taper the head slightly to reduce contact area with the wheel. Chapter 3: Axle Preparation. We find 5/8 of an inch is an optimum setting. The Speed Test numbers below each product is the. Locating the COG. Good for spares or replacement parts or for experimenting with axle and wheel modifications. and this works - but it also makes the alignment of these wheels all the more critical. Be sure to finish wash your wheels in warm water and a mild liquid soap and dry well before assembling your racer. 75″ in width. 185" in circumference. 75 inches wide by 1. Brand: Revell. For maximum speed the front and rear of the car must be level with each other. Insert 2. The Lazer! Pre-weighted Pinewood Derby Car Body. The tab is designed to precisely space the wheels from the body. Make sure your champion car is fast and legal on race day. Less friction is important for building a fast pinewood derby car. The grooves reduce the contact area between the axle. Pro Rail Rider Tool™ Pro Axle Bender; Wheels For Pinewood Derby Cars. Once they’re level, you can glue them in place. S. Precision lathed treads inside and outside, wheel edge and hubs are trued and squared, lighter weight, mold matched, then treads and hubs are perma-coated with graphite using our patented process. Step 3. It’s unique design allows new/accurate slots to be cut in the body block to help meet the demand of the often required “Axles in the Slot” rule. When using a Racing Oil like Krytox 100, Derby Worx recommends finish waxing your wheel bore for the ultimate performance. It’s blue, it’s cool and it has helped thousands build a fast, winning car. System is a 4-lane light-weight plastic track, with electronic timer, Race Manager software and wireless remote starter. Addressing each area results in faster cars! top of page. View ALL Products. NyOil II is a thin film lubricant for your Pinewood Derby car axles that out performs graphite over the long haul because oil stays on your axles longer than graphite (graphite-coated axles not included!). A typical trackThread the nail/axle through the plastic wheel. Unless the car runs completely strait. PINEWOOD DERBY CARS! Build a winning car. Camaro pre-cut pinewood derby . It features a ridge that slides right into the pre-cut axle groove - converting the groove into a hole for easy insertion and alignment. If the car bounces off the guide rail as it travels down the track, it will lose speed every time it touches the rail. Track sections are made of a durable, light weight plastic for portability and the track is designed for quick and easy assembly. You can do it — We can help! SHOP. Place the tool flat on the bottom of your car. Follow manufacture’s instructions to achieve your desired axle of bend. Closed. Rear wheel alignment is absolutely critical (even more than the front). All frictional losses in a pinewood derby car come from the wheels and axles. jar. Learn to ensure accurate wheel spacing and axle nail alignment using the Axle Placement Guide. He squared and coned the axle hubs, polished the wheel bore and surfaces, and spun in the graphite many times. 95 compare to $150. Right Rear – Apply axle with negative camber apply line in the 1 o’clock position. PRO Axle Puller-Inserter Tool. Improper wheel alignment is one of the most common reasons that your pinewood derby car is running slow. 1919 "pinewood derby car wheel alignment" 3D Models. HINT: Put a scrap piece of wood on a table to protect your table before pushing your axle in. Insert an axle into your wheel and insert the axle tip into the slot between the spacer prongs. Perform accurate axle alignment, wheel clearance, wheel. Add to cart. - Pinewood Derby Car Alignment - Pinewood Derby Car Aerodynamics - Pinewood Derby Car Body -. By pressing them straight and tapering the axle head, you are many steps closer to a high performance racing part. Video of Proper Front Wheel Alignment. Shop for pinewood derby supplies from the experts at Maximum Velocity. Check length and Width before race day so you have time to adjust. 7. Results/Testimonials. Stock wheels are 1. 2. Add to Wish List Add to. A pinewood derby car is a 5 oz rolling application. Add to Wish List Add to Compare. Red Dirt Derby Pinewood Car Precision Machined and Polished Axles (Four Pack) - Engineered with Increased Axle Diameter to Reduce Wheel Wobble thereby Increasing Speed. When setting up your pinewood derby block for optimum performance, it is best to locate the rear wheels as close to the rear of the body as possible. Sandpaper. The Pro-Axle Press will improve the speed of your pinewood derby. Start by inspecting the parts in your kit to make sure they are usable. The Wheel Spacer tool makes this critical adjustment fast, easy and perfect, every time. If you have spent any time on the Internet researching pinewood derby racing, you will have ran across the term “rail-riding”. The RSX wheels are perforated precision machined wheels that are extremely light weight at a mere 0. 0 inches in 1/8 inch increments. Commercial brick wheels and axles do not work on a pinewood derby track. Forstner bit at the wheel center, and then cut out the rest of the shape with a handsaw. The track surface was very clean and smooth, with smooth joints. Pine-Car Pinewood Derby Axle & Polishing Kit Pinewood Derby Wheel and Axel #p359. 5 degree bend for the rear axles. Official BSA car block, pre-weighted to just under 5. Wheel alignment is important both to minimize wheel contact with the axle head and body as well as to limit the contact. Pinewood Derby Drill Bit. This alignment technique had been used for many years by a select few, but became popular around 2008.